IM 6.8.4.8 - modified mono images cannot import to LR4

[pdh]

Version: ImageMagick 6.8.4-8 2013-04-06 Q16
Features: DPC OpenMP
Delegates: bzlib fontconfig freetype jng jp2 jpeg lcms lzma pango png ps tiff x xml zlib

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

Adobe Lightroom 4.4 (CameraRaw 7.4)

_________________________________

If I export two files from the same raw image (dng), one as colour and one as black & white but otherwise with no difference in adjustments, as jpgs, and then use

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 convert filename1.jpg -bordercolor white -border 155 filename2.jpg

IM as expected creates a simple white border which can be viewed using imageviewers, uploads & displays in Flickr etc OK.

If I then try and import the new bordered images back into LR4.4, the colour image imports perfectly OK and can be displayed and edited.
But the mono image cannot be displayed in either Library or Develop module, and the error "The file appears to be unsupported or damaged" is displayed instead.

This behaviour is consistent with any monochrome image modified by IM to create a border, whether the monochrome is created in LR or if is originally imported into LR as monochrome (e.g. from a negative scan)

[snibgo]

Can you import an monochrome image that doesn't have a border into Lightroom?

I'm suprised you are using jpg as the intermediate format. What happens when you use a lossless format such as png or tiff?

If you have an image created by IM that imports correctly without the border but fails with the border, what is the difference, as shown by "identify verbose"?

[pdh]

Thanks for getting back to me.

1. This is not part of a usual workflow. It's simply to create images with large borders in order to defeat the hideous new Flickr "mosaic" display of my photostream. Hence operating on the jpg. It is however convenient to keep all my images catalogued & accounted for in LR, which is why I want to import these bordered images back in.

2. I import monochrome images (e.g. tiff scans of film negatives) into LR without error several times a week. These will not have borders.

3. I may not have made myself clear.

If I create a border using IM, on a jpg exported from LR, and if the exported jpg is colour, then I can re-import the image (complete with new border) to LR without error.

If I create a border using IM, on a jpg exported from LR, and if the exported jpg is black & white (has been converted to black & white in LR), then LR will import the image, but marks it as unsupported or damaged and no editing can be performed.

If I create a border using IM, on a jpg exported from LR, and if the source file is black & white (i.e. has been originally imported to LR as black & white, and has not been converted to black & white in LR)then LR will import the image, but marks it as unsupported or damaged and no editing can be performed.

4. This is the output from convert filename -identify for a colour image that has had a border added by IM, and correctly imports to LR

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 b20130610-1-2.jpg JPEG 1590x1270 1590x1270+0+0 8-bit sRGB 641KB 0.047u 0:00.046

5. This is the output from convert filename -identify for a black & white image that has had a border added by IM, and cannot be correctly imported to LR

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b20130610-1-3.jpg JPEG 1590x1270 1590x1270+0+0 8-bit Gray 256c 438KB 0.078u 0:00.045

6. If I export a black & white image as TIFF without compression, and add a border using IM, LR will import the image but marks it as unsupported or damaged and no editing can be performed.

[fmw42]

Looks like LR does not like grayscale images from IM. Perhaps because they have 3 channels. If you import the image into LR, can you change the file type from grayscale to RGB or palette? If so, does that then work from then on?

[snibgo]

Fair comment about wanting to use jpegs. But have your tested this with png or tiff?

You didn't do "identify verbose", which might reveal critical information, especially comparing (a) a monochrome image that LR likes and (b) a monochrome image that LR doesn't like.

5. As you can see, this file is a palletted greyscale file. Try adding "-type truecolor" in the convert command before the final (jpg) output filename.

[pdh]

But have your tested this with png or tiff?

yes, it was in my reply, but note that LR does not offer the option to export as PNG:

6. If I export a black & white image as TIFF without compression, and add a border using IM, LR will import the image but marks it as unsupported or damaged and no editing can be performed.

However, to cloud the issue somewhat, I have found an example this morning of a TIFF (originally generated as a black & white file from a scanner) which, when operated on with IM to add a border, does import correctly to LR.

you didn't do "identify verbose", which might reveal critical information, especially comparing (a) a monochrome image that LR likes and (b) a monochrome image that LR doesn't like.

true. here we go: As before, colour file first, black and white next, but also (in case it is helpful) the black& white bordered tiff that does import OK.

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         1: (249,249,249) #F9F9F9 srgb(249,249,249)
         1: (253,253,253) #FDFDFD srgb(253,253,253)
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  Version: ImageMagick 6.8.4-8 2013-04-06 Q16 http://www.imagemagick.org

Code: Select all

Image: bexportcowmono.tif
  Format: TIFF (Tagged Image File Format)
  Class: DirectClass
  Geometry: 2620x3683+0+0
  Resolution: 2400x2400
  Print size: 1.09167x1.53458
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  Type: Grayscale
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  Endianess: MSB
  Colorspace: Gray
  Depth: 16-bit
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    gray: 16-bit
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      min: 0 (0)
      max: 65535 (1)
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      standard deviation: 11441.2 (0.174582)
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      skewness: -0.647153
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If you import the image into LR, can you change the file type from grayscale to RGB or palette?

LR4.4 does not offer that level of editing.

5. As you can see, this file is a palletted greyscale file. Try adding "-type truecolor" in the convert command before the final (jpg) output filename.

No, that generates a file which exhibits the same problems in LR as before.


.

[snibgo]

Sorry, I'm just about to go out. Loads of differences in those last two monochrome files: the one that works is JPEG, 8 bit (of course), sRGB colorspace, gamma 0.4545 (of course), with sRGB profile.

The one that doesn't work is TIFF, colorspace Gray, gamma 1, with a profile. I've probably missed other stuff.

The next experiment is to try to turn charachteristics of the the second into the first, but I'm out of time. Sorry.

[snibgo]

Okay, I'm back.

Another difference: the tiff has a resolution ("-density") of 2400 pixels per inch.

I doubt that the border causes a problem, but it's worth eliminating. I suggest you take a file created by LR and convert it with IM. Perhaps convert it to PNG, then back to the outputted format. If LR doesn't like it, tweak everything (colorspace, profile etc) until it does.

Perhaps LR docs or a forum can say what LR can accept. If so, we can probably suggest what IM commands will make a file that way.

[fmw42]

I tried to convert a color image to grayscale (and also bilevel) in IM 6.8.5.10 and save to tif, gif, png and jpg.

convert logo: -grayscale rec601luma tmp.xxx


oddly

the gif and png have gamma=0.4545, but the tif and jpg have gamma=1.

It was my understanding that -grayscale should honor rec601luma (non-linear) and so should have gamma=0.4545.

I even tried converting afterwards with -set colorspace sRGB and -colorspace sRGB and the tiff always ended with gamma=1.

I am not sure but this looks like a bug to me. I will report it and see what they say. It is possible that tif and jpg do not store the gamma value and IM assumes these gamma values when reading the image and/or generating stats.

[pdh]

snibgo,fmw42 - thank you both for all your efforts and attention.

Whether we consider it a "feature" or truly a bug, I do consider it a shortcoming in IM; but while inconvenient and annoying, it isn't a showstopper for my current purposes.

The question does arise whether there is an issue with only these types of monochrome images, or whether this is a singular instance of a general case.

If someone were to be manipulating a large number of images using IM, as part of a workflow that also used LR, then this would be quite problematic

Because this is something that is proving time-consuming to resolve, I am not inclined to pursue experimenting with it further at my end at the moment.

If however the developers choose to look at this, find it to be a shortcoming in IM, and change the code to overcome it, I will gladly beta (or even alpha) test. If that is the case please contact me via PM as I do not monitor this forum regularly

PS I did find time to upgrade to 6.8.5-10 but same problems ensued

[pdh]

Now tested with ImageMagick 6.8.6-0 2013-06-15 Q16.

no change.

[magick]

Two other options. Add -type TrueColor to output an RGB image instead of grayscale or -interlace none to remove progressive encoding. Also consider posting this bug report to the LR forums since its a deficiency or bug in LR, not ImageMagick. ImageMagick is creating valid JPEG grayscale images (meaning they meet the specification of the JPEG standard).

[pdh]

ok many thanks.

I have now tested with -type TrueColor and -interlace none, both individually and combined, and in each case generates files that LR refuses to import at all, throwing an error that is fairly rare: "Failed to find a place for the imported file"

I'll give Adobe a poke when I have a moment, but I'm guessing they won't be very interested.

thanks again to all who looked at this with me.